Hello,
Seems like the Dig Piano - Kawai - is not recognising, or not receiving, Program Change instructions.

You need to check that the Kawai is able to receive PC (Program Change) and that it uses the normal codes. You need also to make sure that the Instrument number is appropriate (i.e. the Software process may use GM patch numbers, the Kawai may use something else).

You have the manuals!

If the Korg DOES work, then seems PC commands are being sent.

If you can save the data as a midi file, and send me it, I can look inside and see EXACTLY what's there. That would be a help.

Also, check the Patches/Instruments you are using. Is the Patch ## the same for all three units (Software, Kawai, Korg) - check this in the manuals. However, if this was the total answer, I'd expect the Kawai to be playing different things on each channel, even if the wrong things, but not the SAME patch on ALL channels.

Geoff

Just looked at manual on line for kawai CN37. Is it CN37, you originally put N37?

According to Program/Instrument numbers, the Program change system is different on the unit. Almost all settings require a BANK select AND a Program Number. So the Kawai needs two commands. The other units prob work fine with one command (Program Change) only.

Geoff

Hi Geoff - sorry I didn't get back. I sort of gave up with this and didn't see your replies. many thanks for engaging with this. After that question I went back to Kawai through their European branch and they were pretty clueless - and, actually, indifferent. No-one there was able to achieve the simple task of getting different instruments to sound on different tracks using a sequencer.

I've now returned to the problem and am still getting nowhere.
I found that I could set program changes through the Cubasis 2 App. but it's very fiddly because they have to be drawn onto the screen and cannot be input numerically.

I still believe there must be a way to use the Kawai to make this work. It's possible to record tracks directly onto a USB stick but that doesn't allow any editing, not even balancing the different tracks volume wise!

I can play around with program numbers but I'm still failing to make it play more than one different sound at a time.

I'm not sure that I know how to send the data as a midi file.

I found a document on from Kawai on midi but I still don't know what to do with it. Attached. Whoops, I got a message saying that file was unsupported.
It's here:

https://www.kawai-global.com/data/manuals/CN37_EN_MIDI_Settings_Manual.pdf

Apologies again for not seeing your post.

Steve

Hello,

I'm still here!

I've d/l the manual, I'll have a look at it.

It would have been nice to see the actual midi being sent, but it's easy for me to say that, but not so easy to achieve if you don't know what you're doing.

It may be that the piano sound is the default instrument for all the channels, and you're not sending program change commands to set different instruments, or the messages you do sent are not getting there (maybe they all go to the wrong channel).

Can you play a pre-made midi file. One thing that might help is that I send you a known midi file, you play it, and report on the sounds made? OK?

Geoff

The manual you refer to above is onlt a part of the docs, this one seems to refer mainly to certain setup procedures regarding midi. These MIGHT well contribute to your problem, but the details given for the different settings are not clearly explained, so I'm not sure. Some quick experimentation would clarify I'm sure.

The bulk of the detail in in a much larger Owners Manual, this is also available via the web. I've had a quick look at that, specifically the Program List.

I must have looked at this before, hence my comments a year ago about the Program Change differences.

Looking at this again, there is an initial bank of 128 sounds, which all expect a LSB Bank Select of 0 (zero). This may well be satisfied with defaults, i.e. doing JUST the Program Change instruction SHOULD select an instrument. You would need to have the Midi Settings 'Multi Timbral' item set as on1 (on one). I think that having this as 'off' would mean that multi timbral would not work at all, and the third setting 'on2' (on two) would mean that all program changes would involve three midi commands, for MSB, LSB and PC, and these settings are quite different from anything else.

The 'on1' are not ideal in any event. There are 128 sounds all using LSB of 0 and Program Change of 1 to 128. The start of this list is close to GM sounds, but the further down the list you go, the further you get from GM. So, a GM midi file may well 'sort-of' work, but ideally you'd need to change all the instrument assignments to suit the Kawai. Instrument 1 is standard piano, and will be the initial default for all channels. Oh, the list continues with further sounds after the initial 128, now requiring the LSB value of 1, then there are more sounds needing a LSB of 2, and certainly these would be accessible ONLY with the full/correct Kawai version of Program Change. In some ways, this system may be leaning towards GS/GM2, but I don't think they're right for that either.

In your case, it appears that PC (program change) is not being done at all. This would be the case if your keyboard is set to on2, so that's one place to start.

Geoff

That's very useful Geoff. Many thanks. I think it's pretty much as you say!
I have now managed to make program changes within on1 (because that if the default multi timbral). It's really fiddly because the changes have to be drawn on the screen with a finger and it's so easy to be one or two sounds out when the finger is lifted.
Next I'm going to play with LSB values to see whether I can get the other instrument sounds. There are some CC settings (not sure what that stands for) and I believe from something I read earlier the number is CC 32. Just getting it to settle on a 1 or 2 is really hard with the draw technique but I'll persevere.
I suppose I should invest in a decent laptop and software program. I wonder if there's an iPad app. that allows program change by entering the required digits rather than moving the finger up and down the screen.
Thanks again - I'll let you know how it goes!
Steve

Hello Steve,

Sorry about the CC, this is an abbreviation for Contol Change (or Change Controller). Many midi devices accept modification to various 'controllers' such as volume, tremelo, etc via control changes, and there is a list of Controller numbers, and your devices may or may not support certain ones. The more fancy (and expensive) the device, then the more controllers it may support. The midi data will require three bytes for this, the first byte to signify CC and the Channel, the second byte for the controller number, and the third byte for the new value for that controller (on that channel).

Bank Select (which your device needs, it appears) uses two controllers to handle the setting of LSB and MSB, one uses Controller 0, and the other uses controller 32 (or 20 in Hex), hence your reference to CC 32. To complete the sound/voice selection, these commands must be immed followed by a normal PC (Program Change) command. I'm guessing however that in mode on1, where the system required JUST the LSB of 0 and the PC number 1-128, then the PC alone may still work to select an instrument, so a standard midi file will still do something useful even if the sounds selected are not totally correct (but maybe not too far off).

I agree though, the touch screen system you have does NOT sound very convenient. I can understand the difficulty! I do NOT understand how folks manage with iPhones!!

Geoff

Steve,

Just re-read your original message.

Any chance you could save your project as a midi file (SMF) and attach it to your next message. You may need to zip it first for the attachment to be accepted.

I can try the file, and more important, look at the data insode, and this may help determine the nature of the problems. Please also indicate what instrument each track/channel OUGHT to be.

Geoff

Hi Geoff,

I had some success with this. I can set up and record on tracks using the PC and CC32 (for the MSB).
However, this is only in principle because it is actually impossible to set the MSB to 1 or even 2 because it is too fiddly (I've really tried with this. The screen is graded into 128 and for my purposes only 0,1,2 are of any use and I can't shift it from the 0).

The CN37 allows USB midi recording so I made the beginnings of a track with that (attached) in the hope that if I then imported it into Cubasis it would do the trick of setting up the piano for the same sounds. The sounds are close to what I intended when I play it on my PC which must have GM or something but were way out on Cubasis. The instruments I chose were Flute, Clarinet and Bassoon from Others: Reed and Pipe, pg 141 of the manual.

Looking at the midi manual I sent you there are two settings, Send PGM and Trans.PGM change. Do you think there is any way to use these to tell the sequencer what I want?

What I really need it to hear the sound of the instrument I'm playing rather than change the sound after recording so I wonder if there's a way of setting up a template. Could this be done through the raw midi file perhaps, so that if I import it into Cubasis it will has the MSB and program change already done?

Please don't worry if you lose interest in this! I'll probably be away from email for a few days now so If you do reply and I don't get back that's why.

Steve
Pressed Send and it tells me my file is an unsupported format so that's why it didn't come.

Steve,

Thanks for the note.

Regarding the file send, guess what!

Although this site is all about midi, and belongs to midi.org, the forum process does NOT support midi files.

That's why I suggested zipping the file, and attaching the resultant .zip. We're not doing this to save space, it's just to get a file-type (.zip) that the attachment process will accept.

And yes, it would be no problem to use multiple midi files. One file (pre-prepared, even by someone else) that you send first to ensure certain settings, and could use every time, followed by a second file for the actual music, but you'd need to make sure there was nothing in the second file (like PC settings) that will un-do something set in the first file.

There are software ways around this. Cubase may allow the merge of two or more files. Or something else could be used, but may be too fiddly for you.

Geoff

Hi Geoff

I have continued to play around with all this and have found a way that seems to work!
I'd previously rejected the On2 settings because of all the other settings that seemed necessary and how fiddly all that was.
But there are some good sounds available with the On2 settings and they require no other CC settings. When I returned to the settings having started a project I was able to restore these different sounds quickly and carry on. I found changing settings using one of those screen pens a little easier than my fingers.
The midi files on Cubasis have a .cbp file extension so I'm looking into finding a way to convert those. I also think it's possible to merge files in Cubasis as you suggest.

I don't need to do this but I'd like to look into how to write midi files with a text editor. If you know of a pre-dummy tutorial on this I'd be interested.

Thanks for your support

Steve

Hello Steve,

I don't think there is any way to directly create a midi file with a text editor, as a midi file is a binary format.

I have used a variant which involves createing a text file in a special format, and then using another prog to convert this file into a midi file. BUT, this prog is a DOS program, now quite old, and you need a machine that can support such. A PC no later than XP will work, otherwise you need some sort of DOS emulator.

I have two DOS progs called ENCODE and DECODE, which came as part of a Midi Tools package written and sold by someone called Kevin Weiner in the US. All very useful, incl midi players, filters, various utils to convert/modify midi files. DECODE will take a SMF (Standard Midi File) and convert it into a .TXT file (with two options, the full/detailed format or the much abbreviated, and less readable, format). The TXT file can be viewed, and edited, etc. I've uploaded examples of a DECODE file during previous threads. Then, you can use the ENCODE prog to generate a new .MID file from the .TXT file. By decoding an existing valid midi file, and studying the layout of the file, it would be possible to create a new TXT file from scratch and then generate a midi file from it.

This may be far more fiddly than you have in mind?

I think that there are some other music file systems that may use an intermediate 'language' to create a music file, that can subsequently by converted into a midi file. I seem to remember something called ABC, or something like that? Try a Google search for something like 'text file to play music'. Or there are old progs like 'Band in a Box' (again, I've got an old DOS version, but there are much newer versions of this now available) where you enter chords like a Guitar 'tab' format and the system will save the data, and you can play with auto accomp, or save the result as a midi file to be saved or manipulated elsewhere..

More info, just ask - but NB, all my stuff is now fairly old, and DOS based, so not so easy to use W7 onwards.

Geoff

Hi Geoff
The good old days of DOS.
Will be investigating these leads - thanks. Then there's Csound etc. As you say looks pretty complicated but could be fun!
Thanks again
Steve