Thanks for that info John, the only drawback is this isn’t a midi file, it’s a Cubase Project File ( .cpr )
Once again syncing Cubase to the Electribe isn’t the issue. Starting and stopping the Electribe is, but via a Start/Stop command from Cubase. I can’t fathom out how to input any code above decimal 127 from Cubase but Kenton does it, thru Cubase, no problem !

In Cubase look up the following, it may help?

"Getting Into the Details/Synchronization/The Project/ Synchronization Setup dialog/MIDI Clock Destinations"

This may be the section for setting up Start and stop messages.

JohnG.

And if you're still struggling to find out how to enter a "Start" command into the MIDI file using Cubase,
then why not download the freebie Anvil Studio, load your MIDI file into it, and do the edit there and resave.
See the attached pictures.
It took me less than a minute to do the edit there!

Hello,

If Cubase thinks you want to enter normal midi, then it's prob quite right to restrict the data to the range of 0 to 127 (although I wonder if there might be 'exceptions' to that rule).

But I would have expected Cubase to allow the entry of SYSEX, and that should allow up to FF, and include the values you want. BUT, is Cubase being 'clever' and/or 'helpful' and allowing SYSEX to be entered within the preset F0 and F7 bytes, or does it complain at a single byte SYSEX instruction? How does entering SYSEX work? Are there other options at that stage? Are you entering data into a midi file that is going to be 'played', or is there some way to SAVE and LOAD the midi data that you are trying to use, whereby the SAVEd file could be accessed and manually edited?

Geoff

Welcome John,

Many thanks for your most valued input regarding this current topic.

In order to paint a clearer picture of my, well not quite a problem, but an easier way of arriving at the same conclusion, let me try to explain what the situation is at this end !

I play in a band, or at least I hope I do after this terrible pandemic has been defeated, and we use backing tracks as we don't have a bass player or a drummer. The audio backing track
contains the Drummer and Bass player obviously and strings or horns as and when required.

We do rely heavily on Midi though as all the Lighting, PA effects, both guitarists GT8 pedals and my 2 keyboards depend on it to change programs run the lighting, in real time not pattern based, and a TV teleprompter etc etc.

Recently one of the lads came up with the idea of using some samples like a church bell or a crack of thunder, you know the idea but very small samples, one shot type things. He had a Korg Electribe ESX-1 lying about so put all these samples into that.

I have a Kenton Control Freak ( 16ch ) so we elected to use that to trigger the samples which at the touch of a button, in this case Function button F3, the sample player plays the sample and function button F2 stops it.
The plan is, whilst the show moves on, the next required sample is loaded ready by a simple program change command from cubase to the Electribe. Other than the Program Change command, all this is accomplished with just 2 button presses on the Kenton.

Now all I'm wanting to achieve is to do that very procedure but via Cubase NOT the Kenton !!!

Try as I may, I cannot find what the message is that is sent from the Kenton out to the Electribe ( thru Cubase ) yes its a Midi Machine Control command 0xFA & 0xFC ( thats around 250 decimal I think ) but Cubase only lets you input up to decimal 127.

Now the third member of our band came up with a solution. ............... Put these samples on the backing track as well !!!!!!!!!!!! Mmmmmmm

Yes this is possible but now I've gone down this road I really want to achieve the objective of getting cubase to do it !

Many thanks to both of you for your much valued input .......... the saga continues

Martin

Hi Norman, Geoff, etc.,

Here goes!

Open the EMX1 manual at page 84, refer to the right hand side and the section "About the MIDI messages used for synchronisation".

Read "Realtime Messages" used ... (it should really say that these are MIDI System RealTime messages as found towards the end of Table 1 in the MIDI specification.)
MIDI timing clock = F8 (that's Hexadecimal so should be written F8H)
Start = FAH
Continue = FBH
Stop = FCH.
That's it for the basic control.
So Cubase should be set to send out the MIDI timing clock so that it controls the timing, and the drum machine set to synchronise to the Cubase clocks, (as detailed in the EMX1 manual.)

So, we need to insert the appropriate realtime control message within the MIDI file at the beginning of measure 20 using Cubase.
Well, Cubase I don't have any more, but using the freebie Anvil Studio, I open track 1 (assigned to MIDI channel 1) and Edit, Insert MIDI event.
I need to select the option to "show all controller events" then I can select - "Start".from the drop down list.
Adjust the Measure, Beat, Tick to the position required, i.e. "020.01,000 ", hit Enter ... job done.

So, attached you'll find a zippped file "MCI-Commands".
Unzip it and you'll find a format 1 MIDI file.
Within it at measure 20 is a start command
Followed by a stop then a continue ... or something like that !

It's just possible that Cubase calls this event type an "MCI" event (Machine Control Instruction).

The next page of the manual goes into Song Selection and Song Position Pointers, but you didn't ask about that!
"About Synchronisation in Song mode."

Now, that wasn't rocket science, was it? ;-)

Hope that helps?
JohnG.

Won't let me enter any number higher than 127 Geoff !

Martin

Would you need to use the &H at this point? The &H is merely a prefix to indicate a hex number. In some circumstances the number would be entered merely as the hex digits, i.e. FA, or it might need to be entered in a decimal form, i.e. 250.

Geoff

I’d have to write this single byte into the cubase listing at the appropriate point on the timescale and there’s not a facility for the “&” plus I still don’t know if the &HFC is just part of a longer message.
To be honest Geoff when I came up with this idea I assumed a simple ( very simple ) start / stop command wouldn’t take all this fathoming out, I mean really all we’re wanting to do is start and stop a drum machine as and when we want, whilst the main sequence, Cubase is running continuously in the background.

........... thinking of taking up fishing ? !

Martin

Aargh - yes, NOT very helpful, in fact. This would almost certainly have been the single byte &HFA, which is the 'start message', but there should be no need or point in 'translating' this for you, it would be FAR more helpful to merely give you the data. Are you sure there isn't an option there to present the raw midi data?

Geoff

Found a nice iPhone app called Midi ToolBox which one of its attributes is that it records all midi data so I hooked my Kenton up to an irig midi2 and attempted to record the MMC start/stop command from the Kenton ......... nothing except a timing point and a note saying "Start Message " but NOT what that message was !!!!!!
In desperation Ive sent a lengthy email to the support department at Korg UK and am now waiting for their response but I don't think it will be anytime soon !

Thanks Geoff for sticking with me on this one ..... I'll let you know what Korg come up with !

Right, looked again at the manual for the Korg, page 84.

The command for start does seem to be just the one byte. The only proviso in the manual text is that the device must be in 'slave' mode to respond to the message, so I would expect that if you want the device to start it's process at bar 20, then have the command in the midi data at the end of bar 19 as the device will actually start at the beginning of the next measure, i.e. bar 20. But you may need to experiment with the exact placement to get exactly the right effect? That is, I'm assuming that the bar 20 you refer to is bar 20 in the Cubase data, but will in actuality be bar 1 as far as the Korg is concerned?

Geoff

Regarding the MIDI-OX system, there are equivalents for Mac OS. I did a search for 'midi monitor mac' and got links to something called snoize and also a system called Midi Monitor but I don't know which would be better for your situation/system.

Geoff

OK, I'll have to go back to the manual again. However, when I was looking before at the pages just after page 83 then was a section that referred to thses commands, and there was a specific reference to the code for Start - just the one byte given. I'm not sure from the text about there if this code is sent alone, or if it needs to be part of a packet, but other docs suggest that the System Realtime Messages do have a single byte &HFA for START, and &HFC for STOP so it might be worth trying those as single chars within the midi. I'd guess that ANY device on the system that can 'start' could respond to a 'start'?

Geoff

Hello Geoff & Mike, sorry for the delay in replying, urgent work required elsewhere !!
I looked at the MIDI-OX app but unfortunately its a PC thing and I'm Mac. I followed various links to Mac based similar programs such as Sysex librarian etc but came up with the same problem in that I couldn't "record" the Kenton's output although I know it is sending data as I ended up hooking an irig midi2 and its blue LED was flashing furiously every time I moved a slider or button on the Kenton. Further reading makes me believe that in fact its a System Common message I may need, as stated by Mike, which only requires a simple Start / Stop command to be sent by CUBASE ( not the Kenton ) but finding out what that message is, is beyond my intellect !

Mike,

Yes, the Electribe manual makes no mention of MMC, so as you say, it may not support it. However, there is also the Kenton device involved, and the manual for that does explicitly refer to MMC, and it is the action of the Kenton device that I understand from OP that does work, except that it involves the extra device. OP wants to find the codes (SYSEX ?) from the Kenton and use those same codes from within the Cubase system to do the same job.

Just trying to work out how.

Sounds like the complication is that the music in Cubase starts immed, but the drum machine material does not want to start until bar 20.

Geoff

Very few devices use MIDI Machine Control messages. So I assume that your Electribe does NOT support the use of MMC.
Instead it relies on the use of System Real Time Messages: Start, Continue, Stop, and Timing Clock, like most sequencers and drum machines.

The Electribe might also be able to respond to a System Common Message: Song Position Pointer. This message declares the number of 1/16 notes that have elapsed from the start of the song and is used to begin playback of a sequence from a position other than the beginning of the song.

However, many sequencers maintain the control of these System Messages and they are tied to the sequencer's own functions. The user usually cannot enter those messages into a sequence. So if your Electribe supports Song Position Pointer, to get it to start from bar 4 you would have to set Cubase to start from bar 4.

Hmm.

I note the reference in your last message to MMC. I've looked this up. There's a Wikipedia page about it, which might be helpful.

MMC is a variant of SYSEX, for MIDI Machine Control. It looks like SYSEX, so once you can determine what the actual message is (i.e. the actual bytes used) then I assume the same bytes could be included in a SYSEX instruction sent by Cubase. No reason why not. I assume the Korg device is sensitive to MMC, I was not looking for that before. The manual may see the MMC as being separate to normal SYSEX?

Geoff

OK, if these codes are mentioned in the manual, then they must be from the Mfg. Quite what they are I don't know.

MIDI-OX is a fairly small piece of software that you install on the PC. It sits in memory, and latches onto the midi interface (real or virtual) and listens to whatever comes through. It can display on the screen, but more useful is that it can record/save the data, and save as a midi file for separate processing. By the way, I think the MIDI-OX is 'free' for download.

You may, even if temporarily, need to connect the Kenton midi OUT to the computer midi IN to get this data captured. The data sent by the Kenton may not normally go to the PC depending on how the devices are connected together. Once the data has been captured, then the devices can be reconnected as normal.

Geoff

Thanks for your persistence on this Geoff, much appreciated.

Ive tried every way possible to record what data my Kenton is sending out when I instigate the MMC Internal clock Stop and Start commands.Although it must be
sending something because my drum machine starts and stops when it should but I can't "record" these events. Ive even tried using the Thru out to record even though
its just a copy of the midi In but to no avail. Here's what the Kenton manual says about the function keys in question :- " These 4 function keys have been pre programmed to provide internal clock controls and basic MMC control of sequencers / drum machines and other recording devices etc etc "
In the meantime I"ll get this MIDI-OX you mention and see if I have better luck with that !

Hello again,

Further to previous messages, I've had a bit of a look at the EMX-1 manual. There's not much about SYSEX in there. There is a reference to the 'Midi Implementation' that needs to be requested from Korg, this data usually comprises a full memory map of midi with information as to what addresses do what within midi, and this data opens the door to creating all manner of SYSEX commands. There may well be a lot of hints and suggestions within the data given. Maybe the instruction that you have on the Kenton device has been created using such information?

There is some reference to 'Universal System Exclusive' messages, which are as you descrive, generic instructions that do not need the Mfg codes, etc, but the manual refers to three ONLY that are recognised by the EMX, namely 2 referring to 'Inquiry Message' and one referring to 'Master Fine Tuning'. There seems to be nothing relating to Stop or Start, so any messages of this type must be normal SYSEX.

There is information in the manual regarding co-ordinating timing matters with other devices, but I cannot comment much on this as I know so little about your setup. I understand that you should consider your setup and decide which device is to be controlling as regards timing - the EMX can do this. In this case, all other devices will need to be controlled. I think the Kenton device can be controller as well., but you should have ONE controller ONLY. The problem then will be - can you make the Cubase system to be controlled?

If the Cubase system is sending midi data to control the other devices, then maybe you should have Cubase controlling, and it simply activates (starts) the EMX at the correct moment. Of course, the start point may be OK, but you'll need the two systems to KEEP in time with each other, so can the EMX be slaved (timeing-wise) to the Cubase (computer ?) I suspect that it CAN be controlled by timing info from outside.

A lot of manual reading for someone?

Geoff.